House to Astonish Episode 133
A busy little week of news for you, with chat about the Wicked and the Divine heading to TV, Tilda Swinton potentially joining the cast of Doctor Strange, the Lumberjanes movie landing at Fox, Stephen Amell’s dalliance with WWE, Mark Paniccia’s step up to X-Men senior group editor, the post-Secret Wars Marvel teasers, Brian Bendis and David Marquez’s Invincible Iron Man and DC’s half-page ads. We’ve also got reviews of The Covenant, Bizarro and Airboy, and the Official Handbook of the Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe is what it eats. All this plus Gary Oldman Logan, Rage Twix and Fear Twix, and Formula One’s legendary piranha pit crews.
The podcast is here, or here on Mixcloud, or available via the embedded player below. Let us know what you think in the comments below, on Twitter, via email, or on our Facebook fan page. Don’t forget that if you want to look amazing and help keep us in Jaffa Cakes, our wonderfully affordable shirts are available at our Redbubble store.
I agree about Bendis not being a good sharer, even in the Ultimate Universe. Look at Ultimate Marvel Team-Up: they spent ages carefully crafting modern versions of Spider-Man and the X-Men, but then Brian goes and dashes off a new half-baked iteration of an existing character each issue, just so he could work with a different artist he liked, regardless of whether it actually worked in the Ultimate U or was actually a properly thought out modernised version of a character.
Did American Eagle not have a solo series at some point? Or someone in the New Universe?
Loved the OHOTOH this week.
Airboy is good, but it’s not Flex Mentallo.
I expect DR. STRANGE to be retooled origin-wise for a different reason than others talk about. Marvel has been counting on China more and more as a growth market for their films (including filming parts there). To memorialize Tibet and Tibetan wisdom as the comic origin does would be a no-go for working in the Chinese market. Rather than deal with that or work around that in an oblique way, I imagine that Strange’s training will just done elsewhere with different cultural cues (that aren’t bound to the same late-60s Orientalism).
As for IRON FIST, I got strong hints of the Capital Cities of Heaven from DAREDEVIL’s Easter Eggs, so I think we’ll be seeing more than K’un L’un. We could easily see a cosmopolitan swath of cities with a range of races (some of the Capital Cities even be reconceptualized as being non-Asian in style) so that Iron Fist can maintain his particular mojo within a wider-ranged “weird ends of Earth” subgenre that doesn’t focus on racial elements.
Rob Liefeld’s THE HOBBIT: THERE AND BACK IN TIME AGAIN…
I’ve come to assume that the delay in Uncanny X-Men was to do with Mike Marts (who pushed the Death of Wolverine direction, and got his mates to write it, and the “break them off onto their own planet” story) abandoning ship, and Mark Panicccia needing time to right the ship
The only Native American DC character I can think of who got his own title was the nineties version of Black Condor. (Apache Chief apparently never got his own book, so thank heaven for small mercies.)
The Ringo Kid had his own book in the fifties, and he was half-[whatever tribe the writer remembers the name of this month], so he might count.
Oh, and Apache Kid had his own title earlier in the fifties, and definitely counts.
In some interview this week, they mentioned that “Doom Bro” in the New Marvel ad is actually a new version of Karnak from the Inhumans.
For some reason, I keep thinking that the Iron First TV show will somehow work in Shang-Chi as a supporting character, in a way befitting the two best martial artist characters at Marvel currently able to support their own vehicles. Figuring Shang-Chi will be the better martial artist on a technical level; but Daniel Rand still ends up being the one who’s destined or worthy to wield the Iron Fist.
[…] House to Astonish » House to Astonish Episode 133 […]
Al, Paul, I’m terribly disappointed in you both. Who’s going to feed people with random qualifications to the Piranha? The Maggia. Duh!
They’ve got all these folks to get rid of on the regular basis, and I can easily see some underboss thinking, “OK, he’s useful now, and if he learns something we can put to use, so much the better.”
For shame.
🙂
@Martin Smith
To the best of my knowledge, American Eagle’s only headlining role was in a direct-to-Marvel-Unlimited strip that ran in the early days of that service, like 08 or so
“Oh, and Apache Kid had his own title earlier in the fifties, and definitely counts.”
Regrettably, he doesn’t. Apache Kid was a white man who dressed up as an Apache to fight crime. Really.
I don’t know if you’d count him, but the original Dell/Gold Key version of Turok had his own series from 1956-1982…
If you want more Al, he was the first guest on our new popular culture pod.
Tinyurl.com/winterep1
Episode 2 has Greg Rucka talking fitba and comics.
Tinyurl.com/winterep2
I presume Scalped is not part of the discussion of comics with Native American leads, since we are only talking about superheroes.
Welcome to Night Vale had a fun take on the Apache Kid-esque masquerading, with the Apache Tracker. “What an asshole!” has basically his catchphrase.
That said, I’d totally read an Apache Chief comic, if it was spun out of the Birdman version.
@Brian
Some (such as Adi Shankar) have said that Hollywood’s courting of China was a short-lived phase that has already ended.
But it would be a simple enough change that Marvel/Disney might do it anyway.
SO when the girl that controls minds and has very little moral structure regarding the use of those powers tells you that you are gay…. you are gay.
Like with most things from Marvel, the concept is solid but the execution is flawed. Injecting some diversity into their publishing is a good idea. Having the diversity include minority caricatures or ‘outing’ LGBT characters by a stroppy teenage girl who can invade the privacy of said character’s mind before they’re ready is not a good idea.
It really comes back to something else touched upon in the podcast, acceptance of mediocrity from DC and Marvel. When two of some of the biggest names in comics, Bendis and Liefield, can have long and successful careers despite the poor quality of their work – that’s a problem. Saying it’s good for a Bendis’ comic is a backhanded compliment for a guy who’s had a huge influence over Marvel publishing for 10+ years. Yet, it’s completely justified based on his work.
Hasnt Doom almost always had a hood?
“I’ve come to assume that the delay in Uncanny X-Men was to do with Mike Marts”
Another compelling Marts-spiracy from Dave O’neill!
I’m sure that other Untold Tales of the Bible will come up.
Next: Howard Chaykin’s SODOM & GOMORRAH
Red Wolf had 9 issues according to this: http://marvel.wikia.com/Red_Wolf_Vol_1
And, to be fair – http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nez_Perce_people#/media/File:Nez_Perce_warrior_on_horse.jpg
@Paul: Dammit, I looked Apache Kid up on Wikipedia to make sure he had his own book, and then I didn’t even bother reading the bio like I did for Ringo, because it was in his name.
Liefeld has a long career because his comics are FUN.
Bendis has a long career because people never got over how good his indy stuff was
DC published “The Butcher” by Baron and Pensa… It was an early ’90s comic starring the titular Native American vigilante.
Here’s the problem with Iron Fist though. Either he’s a white guy who took the Asian powers and made them better, like in the comics, or he’s the only Asian superhero, who does kung fu. It’s a lose-lose situation. Same thing with Dr. Strange. He’d be an inscrutable Asian with mystic powers. At least his story can be easily changed from Asia to Some Mountain Somewhere.
And on the same theme, why mess about with Red Wolf? Make Wyatt Wingfoot the new Captain America. He doesn’t have any major stereotypes to contend with (unlike Sam “Raised-in-a-ghetto-ex-hood” Wilson), he’s military, and a Native American Captain America would just be dynamite exposure-wise.
“Here’s the problem with Iron Fist though. Either he’s a white guy who took the Asian powers and made them better, like in the comics, or he’s the only Asian superhero, who does kung fu. It’s a lose-lose situation.”
Why not play up the white-guy-with-an-Asian-fetish aspect? Make it a bit shameless but also sympathetic. He’s a rich white guy who’s totally divorced from reality, but he got into Asian culture and now he’s got this legitimate power, and his journey is about shedding his ignorance.
The reason Iron Fist is white is that he’s a deliberate throwback to a 1970s genre… and he was only really at home in the 1970s.
And the biggest reason he is white is because wherever he is he sticks out. He’s in K’un’lun and he’s a white dude among Asian people.
Hes hanging out with Luke Cage in Luke Cage’s neighborhood. Just about the only white dude there.
So if you make him black, he sticks out in mystic city but not in Luke Cage town. You make him Asian he fits in while in mystic city but sticks out in Luke Cage town.
So instead of making him the chosen one of the mystic city because he’s better than them, which makes no sense anyway, why not just establish that he’s the Iron Fist because they choose the current Iron Fist from whatever country is the dominant empire at the time? So the next Iron Fist will definitely be from China. 1000 years ago he was from Norway. In 100 years from now the Iron Fist will pass to someone from Finland.
One of the only good things that Bendis ever did, was having Shang-Chi and Iron Fist hang out in Ultimate Spider-Man.
Man that cartoon sucks.
I miss Avengers EMH
Can’t believe no one’s mentioned DC’s Arak, Son of Thunder for Native American characters with their own series yet … 50 issues from 1981-5, which I’m sure makes it the longest-running solo title for a Native American character at either of the Big Two.
“because they choose the current Iron Fist”
Making Iron Fist a legacy character was bullshit. Making Power Man a legacy character was also bullshit.
I wouldn’t say Power Man’s so much a legacy character as ‘obnoxious kid claims name for his own, predecessor be damned’, which is also how Luke Cage got the name (appropriating it from Atlas).
Well, ok, that is a legacy of sorts, but it’s an entirely fitting one.
Damn I accidentally didn’t ignore him.
Okay.
Iron Fist was always as much as legacy character as Green Lantern was in 1970.
That is to say while “passing the mantle” to a brand new secret identity is likely a bad idea, the character, IN HIS ORIGIN STORY, gets a supoerpower grafted onto him that belonged to someone else at the start of the story.
So even if seeing someone else get it is stupid, it’s implicit in the origin of Danny Rand that someone will be Iron Fist after Danny Rand.
The same thing hold true for Captain Marvel… whose legacy wasn’t held by the next Captain Marvel or the one after that (because his legacy is not his name or his basic power set) but by Wendell Vaughn, Quasar. Wendell Vaughn is a legacy character in two ways: he got his quantum bands from another, Marvel Boy, but that really isn’t the heavy one. Eon made him Protector of the Universe, so he carried Captain Marvel’s legacy.
In the Marvel Universe Goliath and Ant-Man are weird legacy characters. Goliath is somewhat passed on and mostly cribbed. Ant-Man is always outright stolen. At least the second Giant-Man, Bill Foster, was Hank Pym’s assistant and therefore a rightful heir to his abilities and responsibilities.
In the Marvel Universe “Power Man” is never a legacy character. People have the name and then some next guy steals it without asking. Luke Cage stole it from an Avengers villain with Wonder Man’s power set.
What was Erik Josten’s name after Power Man? The Smuggler? Then he stole Goliath’s name. Then he proved he had the right to Goliath’s name after pummeling Clint “Goliath” Barton.
Oddly he seemed less powerful as Atlas. I can’t remember why.
But I enjoyed how his ionic power source removed the weaknesses that normal Pym-particled growing heroes suffered.
Marvel should have accommodated Paul and Al’s podcast schedule better by making today’s announcement of the casting of Chiwetel Ejiofor as Baron Mordo earlier, so that our hosts could discuss it alongside the Tilda Swinton business. DOCTOR STRANGE is getting to be an interesting looking film – certainly a well-cast film – and I continue to say that I won’t be surprised if the location of the origin ends up changing.
I presume there will be a segment of the internet that complains the black guy is the heel, as opposed to diversifying the films cast.
I think the casting of the Dr Strange movie shows what the Iron Fist casting will be like: They’ll go with whoever they think is good/popular. Obviously if they’re casting Danny Rand he’ll be male (unless it’s Dani), but race isn’t going to be a huge factor. That seems much netter to me than a deliberate choice to make him Asian, which would suggest…what? That it’s bad to show an American taking the Asian power and making it better, but only when he’s white, otherwise it’s OK?
“Iron Fist was always as much as legacy character as Green Lantern was in 1970.”
Nope.
“In the Marvel Universe “Power Man” is never a legacy character.”
Nope.
For what it’s worth Chris, I wouldn’t say Norway was the imperial power of 1000 years ago. That’d go to Moorish Spain and North Africa. Cordoba was the center of learning of the time, the gateway between Islamic civilization and what would become Europe. The Eastern Roman Empire was still in existence but wasn’t at its height and the Ottomons wouldn’t rise for another 450 years. The Nordic peoples night have explored and raided up and down the volga but they had nothing on Islamic civilization
Fair point, Joseph.
I have a sentimental soft spot for vikings.
I don’t know why.
I really liked the Thirteenth Warrior…. and there was that movie where Indians battled Vikings, although it felt a little one-sided to me.
and yes. Hal Jordan inherited his power from Abin Sur who inherited his power from a previous Green Lantern.
After he dies the Most Worthy of Sector 2814 will inherit his ring and his power.
Danny Rand is not the first Iron Fist and he won’t be the last.
Green Lantern is attached to a property in which multiples and legacies are natural to the concept.
Iron Fist and Power Man are not. They’re lame as legacies.
Excellent job ignoring my posts, by the way.
A way you could get away with making Danny Rand white – which I don’t think should necessarily be a priority but, as has been pointed out, saying that the mystical martial arts guy “makes more sense” as Asian is like saying a character with tracking powers makes more sense as Native American or someone with compassion-based powers makes more sense as a woman – without making him a Dances With Wolves/Avatar/Last Samurai-style “mighty whitey” would be to go the Kyle Rayner route, where he’s just the first person the previous Iron Fist (or whoever bestows the mantle) ran into when he absolutely needed to pass on his powers to a successor right this moment. Then make the show about him growing into his mantle, maybe give him Shang Chi as a mentor trying to help him learn to be a worthy Iron Fist.
I’m not saying make him a bumbling incompetent, but he could have been just starting his training in K’un-Lun when it was attacked by the Hand or whoever Iron Fist’s traditional enemies are, all the other students went to defend the city, his teacher insisted he stay behind because he wasn’t ready, the leader of the attackers got through, mortally wounded the teacher, and he gave the power to Danny to prevent it from falling into the wrong hands and ordered him to flee as far from K’un-Lun as possible. Something like that.
Good idea ZZZ.
Or the Iron Fist is an American because the Iron Fist is supposed to thwart a particular prophesied threat… and in this case the threat is where Danny Rand is from.
Either way I’ll watch it
If the Iron Fist isn’t about successors and predecessors and inherently in the origin, then where the hell did the Steel Serpent get his powers?
Never mind. You’re not familiar enough with comic books or narratives or complicated things to answer the question.
Sorry.
“If the Iron Fist isn’t about successors and predecessors and inherently in the origin”
I said didn’t say it’s not “inherently in the origin,” just that it has fuck all to do with the core premise of the character, and it’s uninspired crap.
*I didn’t say
If the Iron Fist isn’t about successors and predecessors and inherently in the origin, then where the hell did the Steel Serpent get his powers?
In the 1970s and 1980s Iron Fist comics, the idea is that no one before Danny Rand had ever managed to kill the dragon Shou-Lao. Steel Serpent’s powers derived from two factors: he managed to last longer against the dragon than anyone else before being defeated, which let him drain a fraction of its power and get the brand on his chest before the dragon got so disgusted that he didn’t even bother to kill him; and he was also able to drain Danny’s powers thanks to the scar on his chest from the unsuccessful battle with Shou-Lao. This is actually why Steel Serpent *dies* in Marvel Team-Up #64; lacking discipline and skill Danny Rand needed to actually kill the dragon, Steel Serpent can’t control the Iron Fist power he stole from Rand and basically burns himself to ash with it as a result.
This was so cemented as the character’s origin — the only person to actually kill the dragon — that a bunch of stories in the 1980s Power Man and Iron Fist series revolved around the idea that Master Khan was royally pissed off that Danny had killed what turned out to be *his* pet immortal dragon, which was part of a system of human sacrifice he’d set up. No one was ever supposed to win, they were supposed to fight the dragon, die, and then their life energies would flow to Khan.
The idea of multiple past Iron Fists seems to have originated in the two-issue miniseries of the late 1990s by James Felder and REB Brown writer/assistant editor. In that series, a McGuffin from a previous story in Marvel Comics Presents was said to “contain the spirits of all past Iron Fists.” No one ever took this any farther than using it to bring back Steel Serpent as Danny’s archfoe despite his death in Marvel Team-Up #64 about twenty years earlier.
But then no one else followed up, and subsequent stories about the Hand stealing the Iron Fist power were written under the old rule than only Danny had ever truly succeeded, and the Steel Serpent was just the most successful of the also-rans who’d failed across the millennia. Only with the comparatively recent series by Ed Brubaker, Matt Fraction, and Daniuel Aja did we get the idea of many past Iron Fists and the notion that the dragon somehow regenerated after each “death” during the ritual.
It was a pretty massive retcon, but one that worked better than the original formula for most readers; as such, it’s become the base state for the character, along with the equally new idea that Kun-L’un is but one of many “heavenly capitals.”
From Power Man and Iron Fist #75:
That was no-foolin’ pretty cool, Omar.
You know, if you were making a parody of Iron Fist – like the proposed and mercifully never produced Jack Black Green Lantern movie (Google it if you don’t know what I’m talking about and/or don’t believe this was a thing that almost happened) – you could get some mileage out of the idea that the reason some 20th (or 21st) Century American was the first guy to ever defeat the immortal dragon was that he was the first person to ever bring a gun.