The Complete Moira, Part 8
Welcome to the final part of our Moira MacTaggert read-through. For the previous chapters see here: Part 1, Part 2, Part 3, Part 4, Part 5, Part 6 and Part 7.
When we left off, Excalibur had just been cancelled, leaving Moira without a regular title to appear in. But she’s still around, still hunting for the Legacy Virus, and still supposedly in declining health. The final years of Moira’s (original) published life turn out to be big on pointless cameos and appearances where she does little more than explain the plot.
X-Men Unlimited vol 1 #21 by Todd DeZago, Andy Smith & Andrew Hennessy (“Devil’s Haircut”, December 1998). Strong Guy phones Muir Isle to ask Wolfsbane and Madrox for help with a possible alien invasion. Moira is there, and she’s back to working on the Legacy Virus.
Gambit vol 3 #2 by Fabian Nicieza, Steve Skroce & Rob Hunter (“Stormbringers”, March 1999). Gambit visits Muir Isle so that Moira can run some tests on him. Excalibur have now left, and Moira is working full time on the cure (pretty much alone). Naturally, Gambit tries to steal some files, and sets off a ridiculously elaborate failsafe mechanism that he manages to stop before it wipes all her data.
Magneto Rex #1 by Joe Pruett, Brandon Peterson & Matt Banning (“Ascendance”, May 1999). Moira appears briefly in some vox pops about Magneto’s seizure of Genosha. She says she’s lucky to have escaped alive from her previous encounters with Magneto, and that “dark times are coming, mark my words”. I suppose with hindsight you can read Moira as already knowing that the new mutant nation of Genosha will get swiftly wiped out by Sentinels. At the time, this read a little weirdly, since Moira normally tries to defuse anti-mutant sentiment in her TV interviews, rather than tell people that they’re right to worry.
Gambit Annual ’99 by Fabian Nicieza, Walter McDaniel et al (“With or Without You”, 1999). Moira plays the generic scientist role. She runs some tests on Gambit, which lead to us all learning more about Mary Purcell, the spirit who was living inside his body at the time. Mary is purged, and Moira verifies that Gambit is okay now.
Warlock vol 5 #7 by Louise Simonson, Pascual Ferry et al (“Meanwhile”, April 2000). As far as I can tell, this isn’t even listed on Marvel’s website, let alone available on Marvel Unlimited. But it’s just more of generic scientist Moira, as Warlock brings his new friends Lock and Psi to Muir Isle, where they meet Moira and Wolfsbane. As you probably guessed, Moira helps to advance the plot by running some tests.
Uncanny X-Men vol 1 #375 by Alan Davis, Adam Kubert & Batt (“I am Not Now, Nor Have I Ever Been”) / X-Men vol 2 #95 by Alan Davis, Tom Raney & Scott Hanna (“Do Unto Others”) / X-Men Unlimited vol 1 #25 by Joe Pruett, Brett Booth & Sal Regla (“In Remembrance”, all December 1999). These are all issues from the storyline where Wolverine is replaced by a Skrull impostor. Once again, Moira is simply the generic scientist who shows up to advance the plot. After “Wolverine” is killed, Moira comes to the X-Men Mansion to help in the autopsy, which exposes him as a Skrull. She also helps to treat Marrow and Mikhail Rasputin, and then she hangs around for a bit in order to explain the plot, and then get word that the real Wolverine has shown up alive, albeit as a Horseman of Apocalypse.
Uncanny X-Men vol 1 #376 by Alan Davis, Terry Kavanagh, Roger Cruz et al (“Filling in the Blanks”, January 2000) / X-Men vol 2 #96 by Alan Davis & Mark Farmer (“The Gathering”, January 2000) / Wolverine vol 2 #146-147 by Fabian Nicieza, Erik Larsen, Mike Miller, Roger Cruz et al (“Through a Dark Tunnel” / “Into the Light”, January & February 2000). Four issues from the crossover “Apocalypse: The Twelve.” Once again, Moira is just there to be the generic support scientist – though she does get to shoot at Horseman Wolverine, and she helps Psylocke to use Cerebro.
Nearly a year passes before Moira’s next (and final) storyline. Powers of X #6 has a diary entry, which must go here, in which she decides to remove herself from the world, and forms a plan with Charles Xavier to fake her death using a “Shi’ar golem”.
Uncanny X-Men vol 1 #388 by Chris Claremont, Salvador Larroca et al (“Dream’s End, part 1”, December 2000). On Muir Isle, Moira and some generic scientists watch Robert Kelly’s presidential campaign on the news. She isn’t impressed. Meanwhile, Mystique successfully tests a version of the Legacy Virus, supposedly created by her, which only affects normal humans. Mystique and Sabretooth show up on Muir Isle, only to be instantly recognised by Wolfsbane. At the same time, over in the X-Men Mansion, Rogue (whose powers are acting weirdly at this point) also detects Mystique and Sabretooth arriving on the island. Professor X is for some reason unable to reach Moira telepathically, so he sends Rogue, Wolverine and Bishop to help. They arrive just in time to see the Research Centre explode.
Part 2 of the crossover takes place in Cable vol 1 #87, but it involves a different plot thread, and Moira doesn’t appear.
Bishop: The Last X-Man #16 by Scott Lobdell, Joe Pruett, Thomas Derenick et al (“Dream’s End, part 3”, December 2000). Bishop, Rogue, Wolverine and Wolfsbane enter the wreckage of the Research Centre, and try to rescue Moira. Moira is badly injured from the explosion, but she tells them that she has finally figured out the cure to the Legacy Virus – inspired by Mystique’s own recent experiments.
X-Men vol 2 #108 by Chris Claremont, Leinil Francis Yu, Brett Booth et al (“Dream’s End, part 4”, January 2001). In a gloriously nonsensical piece of plotting, the X-Men decide to fly the dying Moira all the way back to the X-Men Mansion on the other side of the Atlantic – rather than, say, taking her to the local hospital.
Moira tells them that her insight into the Legacy Virus cure must not be lost. Rogue offers to use her memory absorption powers, but Moira claims that those powers are too unstable to be a reliable way of preserving the information. (As I’ve mentioned, there was indeed a storyline at this point about Rogue’s powers acting erratically.) So Professor X and Jean Grey travel to the jet in astral form.
This is where we get the scene that calls for some real explanation from Hickman: Jean watches as the astral forms of Xavier and Moira “become one” (in a panel which also mentions that they were lovers, and draws the “becoming one” as, well, exactly what you’re thinking). As they, er, “become one”, the information about the cure passes between them. Charles is too in love to break the contact and is at risk of dying with Moira, so Jean calls in Cable, and together they help keep Charles back. As her spirit seemingly departs for the afterlife, Moira tells Charles that she has known joy with him and is not afraid because the beauty and peace that awaits; she loves him, and wishes him well “until we meet again”. There’s a slightly extended version of this scene in a flashback in X-Men: Legacy vol 1 #216, and a single panel flashback of Rahne holding Moira’s body in New Mutants vol 2 #11, but neither of them add anything important.
So… that’s quite the ruse, if we’re to take it at face value. The obvious problems here are that two high-level telepaths, who presumably aren’t in on the scheme, are watching it all happen; and Uncanny X-Men #389 (which has scenes of Moira’s funeral) has Xavier spending most of an issue reminiscing to himself about her death and their past relationship. This is all quite tricky to explain away. And this Shi’ar golem must apparently have a convincing astral form.
On the other hand… Charles Xavier is certainly not above faking his own death, let alone Moira’s. And “Dream’s End” is an incoherent mess to start with. Most obviously, it asks us to believe that Mystique has suddenly become a world-class medical researcher capable of modifying a virus in ways that even Moira hadn’t thought of. And then she blows up Muir Isle for… well, for no terribly clear reason explained within the story itself. I suppose the original idea was to stop Moira from curing the anti-human version of the Legacy Virus, but it’s all very hazy. Hickman ties Mystique quite closely to Moira, so some of the dodgy plotting in “Dream’s End” can be explained if Mystique is in on the scheme too. But you’ve still got the grandiose astral-projection death scene to explain away.
And there ended the story of Moira MacTaggert, until House of X came along to reveal that she wasn’t dead after all. Or… oh, hold on…
X-Men: Deadly Genesis #1 by Ed Brubaker, Trevor Hairsine & Kris Justice (“Deadly Genesis”, January 2006). Moira appears extensively in video diaries and flashbacks in this series. But she also seemingly appears in issue #1 as a ghost, leading Sean to the room where her records of the lost X-Men team are hidden. Following the Hickman retcons, it’s conceivable that this might in fact be the real Moira after all, though why she’d do it in that way is unclear.
X-Statix Presents: Dead Girl #2-3 and #5 by Peter Milligan, Nick Dragotta & Mike Allred (April, May & July 2006). Moira is among the characters seen in the afterlife in this miniseries. She’s running a book group along with Gwen Stacy and Mockingbird. They’re reading James Joyce.
Chaos War: X-Men #1-2 by Louise Simonson, Chris Claremont & Doug Braithwaite (February & March 2011). This two-issue miniseries was a tie-in to the “Chaos War” event, in which various characters temporarily returned from the dead thanks to disruption in the afterlife. In particular, a makeshift X-Men team appears, consisting of the original Thunderbird, Banshee, two Madrox duplicates, two of the Stepford Cuckoos, and Moira herself – who proceeds to turn into Destiny over the course of the story. Oh, and the story also claims that Muir Isle is a mystically significant place, because it’s a nexus of ley lines.
So even though Moira never died after all, she still shows up as a ghost in a few issues. Oops. But she’s far from the first character where this has happened, and the Official Handbook even has a standing explanation to the effect that confusing and misleading things appear in the afterlife – in other words, it seems to be just generally accepted that this stuff can be ignored with impunity. So her posthumous appearances… didn’t happen. Or rather, they aren’t really her. In Chaos War, the weird mutation into Destiny gives us a hook to hang that on.
So, where does all this leave us? Hickman’s retcon doesn’t fit seamlessly with Moira’s history, but the contradictions are far fewer than you might expect. That’s partly because even though Moira was a regular fixture in the X-books for a long time, relatively few stories were actually focussed on her. Much of the time, she’s doing plot mechanics.
There are maybe three main areas where Hickman’s retcon causes problems that really do call for explanation. One is how on earth she faked her death, how the “golem” thing squares with what we see in “Dream’s End”, and why so many high-end telepaths seem to be taken in by it. But we can be fairly confident that Hickman will get to that in due course, or at least give the benefit of the doubt on that one. Number two is the storyline about her being the sole human infected by the Legacy Virus. The retcon explains why she was the only infected human – she’s actually a mutant after all – but that really doesn’t explain the conversations she has on the topic with Professor X. Number three is Moira’s apparent lack of interest in the techno organic characters that have crossed her path, despite her retconned knowledge of their potential significance. – that’s easier to explain but still something of a tension.
On the other hand, as we’ve seen, there are plenty of places where Moira’s history didn’t make all that much sense to begin with, and where Hickman’s retcon either dovetails nicely with the original, or provides potential explanations that plug existing plotholes. And while there are undoubtedly issues that call for further explanation, the biggest problems affect stories that were unsatisfactory in the first place. It’s not a huge problem if the eventual explanation winds up heavily retconning them – and it most likely will.
As for Moira’s persona, though, it fits decently well with Hickman. There are broadly three main readings of Moira – not that they’re mutually exclusive. In one, she’s a generic scientific genius and medical adviser. In the second, she’s Xavier’s human ally, superhero sceptic, and voice of reason, devoted to her daughter Rahne if sadly forever being occupied with more pressing matters. In the third, she’s actively steering the X-Men, particularly when Charles isn’t there to do it, or isn’t going in the desired direction; her focus on the bigger picture eclipses her interest in Rahne; and she has a recurring theme of survivor guilt, intended to reference Proteus and the victims of the Legacy Virus, but also well suited to the idea that she’s survived multiple previous timelines.
Obviously, there’s nothing in the earlier issues that positively points towards Hickman’s retcon. That goes without saying. It’s a bravura rewrite which imposes a new reading on earlier stories, which the original creators – in particular, Moira’s creator – plainly didn’t intend. You may have an issue with that, and fair enough. But I’m persuaded that Hickman’s retcon is broadly consistent with the spirit of the established character, particularly the third of the readings above. It’s not the only reading of Moira, but it’s certainly a thread that’s there to be found in her stories.
I mentioned this before, but I think the whole point of Moira-as-reset-button is that, when her secret is inevitably blown in the story, it will be when things are so bad that people will be tempted to use her as the reset button to escape the situation.
Imagine when things are so bad that you would rather wipe the board clean and start over.
But that’s also why the Librarian talked to Moira – he was going to let her reset everything if she could convince him she could stop post-humanity. But she had no good ideas for that, so it seemed pointless to redo the last 1000 years just to get back to the same conclusion.
Nah, I don’t think that’s what’s going to happen.
Because that implies either
A.)The Marvel Universe is going to reboot, which I don’t see Marvel Comics allowing.
or
B.)Things are going to get really damn dark in the X-titles for a long time, because they’ll want to reset reality, but they won’t be able to kill Moira.
I’d say that we’ve already seen this scenario pan out in lives six and nine.
Things got so bad that they decided it was best to reboot reality rather than continue.
I also think that Moira does have a plan to stop post-humanity. I can’t see any other reason for Moira’s life ten other than that she came up with an idea to stop post-humanity.
The mutants and Krakoa are her pawns on a chessboard.
I think the Librarian talked to Moira to let him know the awful truth about what awaits everything on Earth thanks to the mutant/human conflict, so that Moira would have that knowledge going forward from life six.
I think the Librarian was torn. I think he was hesitant about post-humanity becoming just another part of a hive-mind, but the Librarian also contemplated whether immortality would be worth the sacrifice.
He left Wolverine and Moira make the decision for him.
(I keep using the “him” pronoun for the Librarian, but that’s probably not correct. Just force of habit.)
“Destiny said that Moira had ten or eleven lives and pointed out that if Moira died before her mutant powers activated, it would be the end of Moira’s existence.”
I wonder if that means her powers will burn out that point?
Good thing Moira survived Wanda’s “No More Mutants” edict…or did she…
Marvel would be willing to reboot current continuity *if* it was one of those “everything’s explicitly exactly the same in the new reality except for this one thing” situations. There have already been two or three of those over the years, the latest being Secret Wars.
You are clearly trolling, Dazzler.
Knock it off.
Since someone brought up the people sucked into Xorn’s black hole in Life 9 and the probability we’ll see them again – not only do I concur with that*, I was recently convinced we’ve been seeing one of them since the beginning. It would make more sense for the Karima that is with Orchis to actually be Life 9 Omega instead of the heroic former X-Man that 616 Karima is. (Not to mention she was de-sentineled and mostly or completely rid of her cybernetic implants… though that’s the sort of thing that often gets overlooked).
*Rasputin was weirdly popular with Twitter and Marvel launched entire series based on less (looking at Spider-Gwen and Gwenpool). I’m certain we’ll see her again if only because of that.
Yeah, the appearance of Rasputin in the…Life 10 universe? timeline? would be interesting, since she knows about Moira / Mother Akkaba. I assume from her suicide mission that she knows about her power too. Yet another way for Moira to be found out.
I think YLu is right: a reboot that only affects the X-books is doable. (There is obviously no way they would let it reboot everything else.)
In fact, I think a reboot like that is more likely than not. Essentially for reasons of narrative logic. Having made Destiny say her “10 or 11 if you play your cards right” bit, I think in storytelling terms you probably have to pull the trigger on that and let the reader see how Moira can get her 11th life. So I think a reboot of some sort as the ultimate resolution is likely if not certain.
It’s always been, I think, the most obvious way for Hickman to put the toys back in the box when he’s done.
Disclaimer: while I’ve been thoroughly spoiled by discussions here, I’ve only actually read what’s on Unlimited. So I may be saying something poorly informed.
Incidentally, while I’m on that subject: is there good reason based on what I haven’t read to suppose that Destiny wasn’t lying when she said that? I appreciate that it’s a bit murky exactly what Destiny can see about Moira’s future(s), given that she can’t see Moira herself directly, and indeed exactly how Destiny’s powers work in terms of possible futures — but can we exclude the possibility that she was telling Moira a lie intended to manipulate Moira into bringing about the future that Destiny wanted in life 11?
Because when I finally read that scene in HoX #2, that was pretty much the first thought that I had. Not sure what it was about it that was cuing that response, but it was immediate.
FWIW, I thought of Grand Design as similar to OHOTMU: not in continuity per se, but a catalogue of streamlined ideas for future writers to work from. Certain retcons in that book might make it into canonical stories, and many will not.
It is entirely possible, since Moira only resets reality back to her birth, and Moira isn’t exactly the most important character to the wider Marvel Universe that a X-Men only reboot could easily work.
It would have to imply that Moira dying was better than the alternative.
Perhaps, if we discover that Moira has been, somehow (either deliberately, mistakenly, or for some sort of cosmic reason), responsible for the events depicted in Moira’s timelines.
Then, it’s decided that Moira dying before she reaches the age of 13 and removing her from the equation is the best chance for eliminating the post-human future from occurring.
All that would be required is to say that everything in the Marvel Universe happened exactly as we remembered it, except certain continuity issues involving the X-titles and Moira would be changed.
It wouldn’t be that hard.
I’m not convinced that this is where Hickman’s run is heading, but it’s certainly a possibility.
Nu-D-You need to read Grand Design again. You must have misunderstood the ending.
Unless you think we’re back on the road to the Days of Future Past as the one-true future of the Marvel Universe.
There’s a twist ending, which shows why continuity was (mostly) slightly different in Grand Design and why none of it can any longer be considered as canonical.
Voord-I think that Hickman needed to include that line by Destiny to increase the narrative tension.
If Moira has unlimited lives, then really, there’s not much need for a crisis point.
“Well, she’s creating Krakoa. That’s going to get messed up, but she’ll keep going, ad nauseam, until she gets something right.”
With life eleven definitely being her final life, that may hint that Moira would die before the age of thirteen in life eleven, killing her for good.
She might not have another chance after life ten to make things right.
We know that life ten may be Moira’s final life.
I think that’s why Moira may be playing her final gamble now with Krakoa.
It could also hint at her going against Mystique and Destiny’s wishes too.
She may have played along with Mystique and Destiny’s warning to embrace the mutant cause for her other lives, because she didn’t want to be hunted down, tortured, and killed over and over again, before she had a chance to accomplish her plans.
Now, it’s life ten, and she feels she has very little to lose. So, it’s time to reveal her true plan, which is not to help mutants.
Personally, I think that my final paragraph above is the truth.
I think that Moira attempted to play nice with Mystique and Destiny’s threats until life six.
She worked with Xavier to make mutants in to superheroes and do good for the world. That didn’t work.
She then decided to work with Xavier to create a homeland for mutants far away from human society, and keep the two sides apart. That didn’t work.
She started to get convinced that no matter what, mutants were doomed.
Then, she saw the far future of life six, and saw what mutants would lead to for humanity.
It wasn’t just that mutants were doomed, their existence was destroying humanity as well.
This made her more convinced than ever that her original idea, that mutants are a cancer in need of a cure, was the correct one.
Her goal now becomes saving humanity from itself (when it becomes the post-human).
She first attempts to eliminate the Sentinels, thinking that may be enough to stop the escalation of events leading to the dystopian future she saw in life six.
It’s not enough.
She decides on an extreme plan, which is being unveiled in life ten.
She needs to set-up for her final plan though.
So, she allies herself with Magneto. Not to help mutants dominate, but so she can learn about Magneto as a person.
Then, she does the same with Apocalypse in her next life.
She needs to know Xavier, Magneto, and Apocalypse deeply, so she can know how to manipulate them in life ten.
This way, she can also trick Destiny and Mystique in to believing that she’s still following their orders and working for the mutant cause.
When she says she was “radicalized” by what she saw, I think it means radicalized against mutants, rather than becoming a mutant supremacist, as many seem to think.
I think Moira’s main goal is to save humanity, whatever the cost.
If that cost is to end the never-ending mutant/human conflict by eliminating mutants, then that is what must be done.
Only then can humanity be saved from becoming post-human and losing everything that makes humans unique.
I think that the seeds of Moira’s plans for Krakoa will be developed and lead to positives in the future, when Moira’s plans are unveiled and stopped.
There is positive in Moira’s plan, in that she wants to save humanity and stop the post-human future, so she’s not an outright villain.
That’s where I think this is going, but I may be totally wrong.
I had thought that Marvel was limiting references to Krakoa in non-mutant titles to oblique ones so they could do a reboot, but that doesn’t seem to be the case with the upcoming crossovers.
I didn’t misunderstand the ending. I didn’t read the ending. I got bored partway through the series.
So it’s probable my interpretation of the project’s significance is horseshit.
I don’t really see a reboot, because Hickman seems to be setting up a new status quo that is going to last for a very long time.
He has all this information about the far future, with the Phalanx and the god-like beings, who are causing mutants to always be “doomed”.
Mutants’ new enemies are set up as machines and post-humanity.
I can’t see all of that being wrapped up quickly…as in, not even in a few years.
I don’t know how you just reboot reality and pretend that everything isn’t going to still end up as the dark, dystopian future shown by Hickman.
I think Krakoa is staying.
That’s why I think it would work if Moira is implicated as the reason for a lot of the unease involved with Krakoa, and then is removed.
It would set up mutants as the heroes.
Moira was attempting to destroy all mutants, so the mutants were victims.
Then, they’re going to try to save humanity from the post-human future and make sure that mutants have a future, but they’ll jettison some of the more problematic aspects, such as the mutant nationalist aspect.
Most mutants will choose to stay on Krakoa and fight for the cause, but some characters will either turn against Krakoa and become enemies again, or decide to remain neutral.
Those are some of the ideas I foresee.
@Chris V: I think, if it’s solely for narrative tension, you just say “10 lives.” It’s that it’s “10 lives, or maybe 11 if you make the right choices” that Chekhov’s Guns a reboot.
Wasn’t it “ten lives or maybe eleven based on the choices you make”?
I don’t think Destiny said it as if life eleven was a reward.
That could presage that Destiny is saying that Moira may betray her and not do their bidding for the mutant cause, leading to them having to kill Moira in life ten.
However, Destiny is currently dead.
That could be the reason for the caveat.
Another thing, and this is just a guess, but maybe Moira will be revealed as I wrote above, and the X-Men will find a way to keep her locked up and immortal.
Then, Krakoa proceeds as I wrote above.
Xavier’s dream seems to be becoming a reality, finally.
Imagine the temptation by “evil mutants”. They can kill Moira and reboot reality and get another chance for mutant supremacy.
Then, you can keep Moira as a convenient plot device.
“Oh, things are going too well for mutants. This can’t last. Surely, someone is going to use the Moira-ex-machina soon.”
Another possible idea.
Narratively speaking, “only ten” can also lead to problems, nearly as much as unlimited lives.
With that caveat of “maybe eleven”:
It makes readers think that if things are going really horribly, there’s an easy way out.
Also, if things are going really well, it creates tension that something will happen to erase it all.
Also, there’s just the fact that it’s hanging out there, making readers expect that the “maybe eleven” means that it will happen and wonder when.
In reality, “maybe eleven” can be used to also create tension.
If you say, “Only ten”, then the reader knows that if things are going too horribly that Moira dying and rebooting reality must not be the answer.
With Moira there, the readers may be waiting for Moira to die and reboot reality, but then you don’t pull that trigger. You leave the reader waiting with suspense.
They think they know the solution, but it’s a tease by the writer.
He can always hold it out there, “maybe eleven”, but he doesn’t have to use it, because of that little qualifier, “maybe”.
By “right,” I mean “correct” in the sense of “the correct way to get 11 lives.” Not morally right — I took it as a prediction (“This is possible under the right circumstances”), not a reward.
About Hickman setting up a status quo for the very long term: well, but how likely is such a status quo to stick? And doesn’t Hickman himself know that there will be someone along after him who will change all this? That the narrative that he’s set up extends into the far future doesn’t change the extradiegetic factor of how everyone knows these things work.
Personally, I think Hickman has no expectation of any of this lasting long past his time on the X-books, and probably has and has always had a plan to reset at the end when he’s told the story that he wants to tell. I mean, the big retcon that he chose to introduce revolves around reboots. You couldn’t accuse the man of not building in a reset button from the start if he wanted one.
Yes, but Moira’s not interested in getting to live her life over and over again. That’s not the character.
She’s interested in accomplishing a certain something.
She wouldn’t care if she lived for two lives, if it meant she accomplished her goal.
If she does accomplish her goal, she doesn’t want to die, and see it all come tumbling back down, to start at the beginning all over again.
She even has herself killed in lives which aren’t going her way.
So, Destiny saying she “might have eleven lives” simply means that Moira is going to keep failing.
A better goal for Moira is to avoid the eleventh life and get things done right in her tenth life.
This is a story about “mutants having a future”, not about Moira desiring to live for all eternity.
As far as the comic publishing world, that would be up to Marvel editorial.
If Marvel editors decide that Hickman’s new status quo should continue, then future creators will have to follow the editorial edict.
This is a corporation. Each creator isn’t allowed the creativity to do whatever they want on these properties.
Hickman was given a lot of freedom by Marvel, apparently because they wanted to really shake up the X-books.
This could imply that Marvel editorial will want to stick with changes made by Hickman for a while.
I’m sure that someday we’ll see a change, but it might be another moment where Marvel editorial hires some writer to bring the X-books “back to basics” or some such.
I think a lot of long-time readers just want to feel like this is all going to be over soon and we’ll get back to “hated and feared” with Professor X at the mansion with his X-Men fighting “evil mutants”.
That may not be the case.
Of course, a lot of this is dictated by sales, but even then, Marvel allowed the X-books to wallow for over a decade before they decided to shake things up by hiring Hickman.
For the record, that was the only time I’ve ever actually trolled here, and I do think I was goaded into it a bit. Having a differing viewpoint and stating it strongly isn’t trolling, even if I did it colorfully, and this crowd has treated me much much worse than vice versa.
That said, clearly HOXPOX and this community doesn’t bring out the best in me. I’ve frequented this blog for actual decades, since the X-Axis days, but it’s probably better that I don’t. Cheers to everybody who made an effort to understand me and especially those who risked it all to actually defend me.
Yes, keep blaming the people you insulted…some people just still don’t get it.
I’m guessing we will see someone with a new name posting now?
@Chris V: Not saying that it’s a matter of what Moira wants per se. It’s not about the internal motivations of characters. On the whole, if the story says “X is going to happen, but there is this chance that it might be Y,” it tends to be Y a good bit more often than not.
Absolutely willing to concede, however, that I may be overrating Moira’s importance – since I’m reading this on Unlimited, that’s very possible. (Although I’d direct you to Joseph S’s arguments. on the larger significance of reorienting the grand X-narrative around Moira instead of Charles.)
As for the long term being up to Marvel editorial, absolutely. But, well, they do have a track record, and one does not have to be too cynical to think that the return to a more traditional model is inevitable at some point. Not saying that it would happen soon, and *really* not saying that it should happen soon. I think it’s years out, as long as (a) the books continue to sell and (b) Hickman wants to continue in this vein.
It would not terribly surprise me, in fact, if Hickman was told that he could think so very, very big because everyone knows that a few years from now, people at the movie end will have figured out what they want to do with the X-Men, and at that point the expectation is that the comics will start drawing from that. And in the meantime, why not make this Hickman’s playground to do whatever he wants, as long as it sells? But this is obviously very speculative.
Voord-Destiny’s comment is based on Moira’s motivations though.
If she says it your way, it implies that this is something Moira would want, an eleventh life.
If she says it my way, it implies that she might have an eleventh life, but that’s based on if she messes up with life ten or not.
Based on the fact that Moira having an eleventh life means she failed in life ten, and her motivation is to accomplish a certain goal, then my interpretation of Destiny’s comments make more sense than to have Destiny saying that “If you do this and this right, you’ll get an eleventh life too”.
Moira isn’t motivated to extend her lifetimes. She is motivated by a certain goal.
Therefore, in my interpretation, Destiny may be threatening Moira, by saying that if Moira doesn’t keep playing the game with Destiny and Mystique’s rules, then they may have to kill Moira in life ten.
Instead of the “maybe eleven” as a “get out of jail free card”, it could be a cryptic clue that Moira’s plan is going against the mutant cause.
Hence, there’s no reason to expect that the reboot button will definitely be hit at the end, and Moira may, in fact, have only ten lives.
I don’t see the reason why intradiegetically Destiny says it, and what it means intradiegetically to Moira, as particularly relevant to the marker that it’s laying down for the reader, really, as long as Destiny isn’t lying (not sure she isn’t, but I don’t think we’re meant to decide that she is). Intradiegetically, Moira is learning something about her actual life or rather lives; the reader is learning something about the possible ways that the story can go.
Marvel also has to tread very carefully.
If the event that they pegged as one of the five most important stories in X-Men history, which they are asking readers to spend hundreds of dollars on, ends up as “What If the X-Men were mutant nationalists?”, it will probably end up being the last straw for a lot of Marvel fans.
Like, me.
Yes, the reader is learning something, which is that this might be Moira’s last life, or she might have one more life.
That leaves a shadow of doubt and uncertainty over the reader, doesn’t it?
Moira might have one more life, so this whole Krakoa thing is going to end up very badly and get rebooted.
Simple. I already know the ending.
Which is where a writer would probably tend to throw a curveball at the reader.
I do wonder if the x-books will be changed in order to fit more closely with however the new cinematic incarnation will shape up. I feel that it doesn’t happen as much nowadays as it used to. Yes, the X-Men wore black after the first movies, and yes, Spider-Man had organic webshooters after the Raimi movies… and yes, Guardians of the Galaxy were misshapen into something akin to the movie version… but that was all years ago (even GotG was more than 5 years ago).
But since then? Well, maybe Shuri was changed to be similar to the cinematic version. Alright, so it’s still happening. But Peter Parker wasn’t de-aged and he hasn’t become Tony Stark’s apprentice (…again). Doctor Strange was on one wild bender after another, there wasn’t a back to basics series released along with the movie (at least I don’t think there was). And while Captain Marvel’s origin has been recently changed in the comics, it didn’t reflect the movie version.
Not to belabour the point (any further) – I don’t think it’s inevitable that MCU X-Men movies will force a status quo change in the x-books.
Completely agree that the writer will want to have some twist. (This is one reason why I am interested in the possibility that Destiny was lying.)
Stories do, however, when they set up this sort of thing, usually give it to the reader, just not in the manner that the reader is led to expect. So while, yes, I don’t think that Hickman built a shiny red “RESET” button into his story without intending to press it, I expect that he will attempt to surprise us with how exactly that happens.
Perhaps. It seems too obvious.
Look at all the warning signs already!
Nimrod is still being built.
Sinister created a Chimera earlier than ever before.
Post-humans are crawling out of the woodwork already.
Krakoa is supposed to be invulnerable, but the bad guys are already finding their way inside.
Mystique is talking about sabotaging everything.
Doug Ramsey might have infected Krakoa with the techno-organic virus back in House/Powers.
Why, it’s all going so terribly wrong!
Which path will lead to damnation first?
Too many red-flags and a convenient reset button.
A real curveball is that Moira succeeds.
What does Destiny lying achieve?
We already know that Moira has at least ten lives.
So, she really has infinite lives?
What does that accomplish?
Is it for Marvel editorial? Every time that sales go down on the X-titles, “Whoops! Time to kill Moira and start over!”.
Besides which, when you say that a writer usually builds these things in to stories in order to pay it off for the reader, doesn’t that usually imply that the reader wants to see the writer do this?
I mean, if people are enjoying the new direction with Krakoa, they’d hope that the writer won’t use that plot-device.
There’s also the “Sword of Damocles”, where you introduce something and keep threatening the reader with it.
As I said, a positive over a negative outcome works as well for that “eleventh life”.
The reader can be kept in suspense, hoping that the Moira button won’t be pressed, thereby setting everything back.
With the eleventh life, there are only three possibilities then, because Moira has no more lives.
She is killed before the age of thirteen.
She gains immortality.
She is cured of being a mutant.
There aren’t any other possibilities for a life eleven.
People have been known to find value in downbeat stories in which things happen that they do not want to see, so, no, I don’t think it’s a given that the reader has to want something to happen within the story to get a kind of pleasure out of a story in which such things happen. I mean, do you approach Oedipus the King going, “I *so* want him to blind himself”?
It is a matter of how it’s done. Not saying it’s easy!
Random thought: Whatever happened to Forge’s power neutralizer gun? Didn’t Mystique have that?
Maybe the twist will be that the current reality -is- Life 11, allowing Hickman to reveal a surprise Life 10 somewhere down the line. (Yes, we were already given a Life 10 timeline in the data pages, but that doesn’t necessarily prove 10 and the current life are the same. It could just mean they’re very similar up to a point.)
For example, maybe in Life 10 she tried breaking all the rules, whatever that means, and it still failed and ultimately she got consumed by the AI. Who, being outside time and space, were able to turn Life 11 Moira into a sleeper agent for the techno-organic cause.
I don’t think that’s actually the case. I’m just giving an example of the kind of twist revealing that she’s already in Life 11 could serve.
Oedipus the King is a completely different story than the X-Men.
You know it’s inevitable in Oedipus the King, because free will really wasn’t something that was considered as existing.
I’m not sure that if Oedipus the King had taken a different turn, where he didn’t sleep with his own mother, that we would feel grievously cheated that we didn’t get the satisfaction of knowing that he slept with his own mom.
YLu-That would be a huge cheat on Hickman’s part. Basically, he lied to the reader, just to build up his reveal. He didn’t earn it through the story.
He made the point of letting us know that life ten is the current Earth-616 Marvel Universe, so we wouldn’t feel like we were reading an “alternate” timeline, similar to another “Age of X-Man”.
We know that what’s going on with Krakoa is taking place in the current day Earth-616 Marvel Universe, because of references in other books (Immortal Hulk), cross-overs (X-Men & FF), and the upcoming tie-in with the Empyre event.
So, there’s no reason to feel that Hickman is tricking us about life ten.
It wouldn’t be a lie, just misdirection. Where does it explicitly say that we’re witnessing Life 10 right now?
I think you might be understanding me, too. If it is indeed Life 11 right now, that wouldn’t mean it’s not the current Marvel universe. It would mean the current universe -is and has always been- Life 11. Life 10 would be the alternate, the way Lives 1-9 are.
In other words:
Life 11 – Marvel Comics, including the Dawn of X books. 616.
Life 10 – Something we haven’t seen yet, except for that one page of Moira in the womb determined to break all the rules.
Not talking about the specifics of Oedipus the King’s plot, Chris V. I’m talking about the fact that for a very long time there have been downbeat stories in which things happen that the reader doesn’t want.
(Massive oversimplification to say that people had no concept of free will in the 5th century B.C., incidentally. Athenian law distinguished between murder and manslaughter, for example, which makes no sense unless you have a concept that people make, you know, choices.)
But replace with a Shakespearean tragedy if you like – the point is that there is no requirement for a reader to want something to happen for the reader to think that overall something is a good story, and pretty much never has been.